Q: Hello John. Wow! What a journey you’ve been on. Through all the struggles you relate in your memoir ‘Sectioned: A Life Interrupted’ you wrote poetry. At what point did you start writing prose, and what happened to make you start writing your memoir?
A: Prose and poetry were never at odds in my writing life. I always wrote little stories, and as I started to dabble in verses at the age of 14 I was of course doing all the work any conscientious young scholar (which is what the Irish call schoolboys) would be doing. So I was writing pen portraits, stories, little book reviews, and then later essays and – when I met Patricia, my first schoolboy crush – love letters (*blushes*). So prose was always there.
Then as a young man, in and out of hospital, starting my progress through therapeutic communities, homeless hostels, night shelters, squats, the streets, and prison, I started writing little sketches, vignettes really, about the characters I met and the situations I found myself in. At the end of that 16-year long campaign I was lucky enough to get into the University of East Anglia. With only three O Levels and an Elementary Swimming Certificate I needed as convincer, as they say in the grifters’ world. So I had to write an essay, on a poem by Auden. I was a week late getting it in. I was in my last halfway house by then, back in 1988, and a young student who worked there weekends, Martin Lunn, helped me apply.
Amazingly, I got in.
Then came three years of solid work on essays, with some short story writing thrown in. I wrote a story in Margart Mulvihill’s Creative Writing class that got an A grade, and showed something I was working on, about my time in the therapeutic community featured in ‘Sectioned’, to my wife (she was only my girlfriend then).
It was that piece that made her want to marry me. And, of course, my devastating looks, charm, and roguish wit!
So at several crucial points prose came to the rescue of this beleaguered poet: prose helped me into university; prose led to marriage; and prose made me a professional writer, when I got the contract with John Murray to finish Sectioned (they signed the deal having read the first four chapters, and gave me a handsome advance).
What happened to make me start writing my memoir? Well, I was reaching a point in my life where I wanted to understand what had happened to me, had happened to my generation. The Eighties was a particularly vicious time, with conflict at the heart of politics. Either it was inner city rioters, the unemployed, the Argentinians, Irish Hunger Strikers, the miners, the print workers, the poll tax demonstrators, in the end the Tory Cabinet – all were at some point against Mrs Thatcher.
I think if you’ve never experienced something as intense and ferocious as that decade-long battle you can’t begin to understand what a terrible time people like me had in the Eighties.
Both my parents died before I was 20. I was fostered at 15, first sectioned at 16, left care at 19, was homeless aged 22. Then in and out of hospital, and all those other places I describe in the book, with cuts biting into social provision, and the rather calm England I had known as a child suddenly, spectacularly gone. My experiences – of poverty, unemployment, homelessness, mental illness – weren’t unusual or peculiar to me. There was a terrible recession in the early Eighties – 3M reportedly unemployed, although I’m sure there were more. Because of the government’s dogmatic adherence to monetarism – and I think the love of monetarism is the root of all evil – the recession was allowed to drift. Very little was done by the PM or the Cabinet to intervene. At least the present government have done something, however much they may be to blame – although I don’t think they are, entirely – for the present debacle. So it was as if the recession of the early Eighties lasted until the next boom, which completely passed me by, in 1986, or 1988. But it was only the Falklands that saw Mrs Thatcher re-elected at the height of that first terrible recession.
That was why the miners’ strike was so vicious I think – the miners’ could see what awaited them, unemployment, and the devastation of their communities. Some of those communities have never really recovered. I think the miners felt they were fighting for their lives, for their dignity. And I think we might have had a very different country if Mrs Thatcher has lost the 1982 election. And I can see it all happening all over again – if we’re not careful.
Q: How did you obtain an agent to represent your work and how long did it take you to be published? What advice would you give to other writers trying to get published?
A: I had interest from Granta Magazine for ‘Sectioned’. They passed the first chapter or so over to Granta Books. They too were very keen on ‘Sectioned’. At this point I thought I needed representation. My friend, Bridget Whelan, author of ‘A Good Confession’, passed me on to her agent, Jonathan Conway at Mulcahy Conway Associates.
Jonathan was able to conduct an auction for the book, and I was delighted that John Murray, who published Byron, Austen, Darwin, John Betjeman, took the book. I’ll always be grateful to Fatema Ahmed at Granta Magazine and Sara Holloway at Granta Books, though. Without their interest and encouragement I wouldn’t be having this interview with you!
It took about a year from signing with John Murray to finishing the book – a fast, intense, hardworking, but very satisfying, miraculous year.
Getting published…
My advice is simple.
Whatever genre you are working in, you must be professional. Draw up a table in your laptop. In this table enter the title of the piece you’ve just completed and the date; the name of the magazine, agent or publisher you’ve sent the piece to; whether the piece has been accepted or rejected; the date of publication. Bold in black acceptances; bold in red rejections. If something comes back, look at the feedback, if any. Rewrite, if necessary. And send out again.
Don’t sulk or be upset about rejection.
Anne Sexton, the American poet, went from being in a workshop to having he first collection published within two years. She would send a poem out 30 times until it was published. She may have failed in many ways on a human level; as a writer she was a consummate professional, her work habits about as far from the dreamy poet as you can get.
So learn to take rejection in your stride, to listen to feedback, and always have more than one project, large, small, across all genres, on the go.
A writer has to become self-employed when they start to make any kind of decent money from their work. They become ‘professional writers’, and have to keep records like any business does, to be organised, and clear-headed. So why not be like that before the break comes?
Keep focused and don’t give up.
Study the titles of the publication you submit to, and the editors, their tastes especially, of the magazines, agents, publishing houses, you contact.
And join a group, a book club, a course.
These are what kept me going, are what keeps any writer going!
You’ll get there in the end.
I was lucky, but I’d spent years making my own luck, honing my style, being patient, believing in my dreams.
It can happen.
Having a professional, business-like, clear-headed attitude will make it more likely to happen. And all those people whose attention you’re trying to get – it will be the first thing they notice about you.
Q: Who is Buster?
A: Buster is my wife!
She’s a twin, and twins sometimes develop their own twin language – so Buster was what her twin called her when they were small. And Buster is the nickname that has stuck. And she’s the dedicatee of Sectioned. Without her I’d probably still be on the psychiatric merry-go-round.
Q: You now lecture for the Open University and the University of Westminster in creative writing. How did this come about? What is the thing you find yourself saying to your students most frequently?
A: In 2001 I applied for and was accepted onto the inaugural PhD in Creative Writing at Bath Spa University along with five other very talented writers. I held two teaching qualifications at that stage, an MA in English Literature from Birkbeck, and had several years’ experience of teaching young people, running Creative Writing workshops – and attending them! – and seeing some small successes – poems, stories, reviews, and articles getting into print, everywhere from The Observer, to The London Magazine, to Ambit, Acumen, and Orbis, and other little magazines too small to mention.
I applied for the post with the OU on their first presentation in Feb 2006 of A215 Creative Writing, equivalent to a second year undergraduate course. It’s a great course, and has taught me lots.
I also applied to the University of Hertfordshire at the same time and taught there for two years until getting the post at Westminster, which is nearer home (I live in Brighton).
One of these days I’ll finish that PhD. I used to think PhD stood for ‘Poor, Hungry & Desperate’ but now I know it actually stands for ‘Poet Has Delays!’
The thing I say most to students is, ‘Well done!’
I’ve taught some great people. And like all teachers of Creative Writing I’m pleased when my students do well.
Westminster is just starting an MA in Creative Writing, and it’s great to be at a place where writing is given so much careful consideration, planning, and space. The ambition of the Faculty I work with, of the students, and the institution in general is just fantastic, and I think that working in the heart of London, right neat Oxford Circus, the BBC, and my publishers on the Euston Road, makes for a very special experience.
Q: You read a post of mine where I expressed surprise that the 2009 Costa Book of the Year Award went to a volume of poetry, ‘A Scattering’ by Christopher Reid. I also posited an opinion of mine that poetry is dead, replaced by pop and rock songs. Octavio Paz said “I don’t think we can have a good society if we don’t have good poetry.” As a poet yourself, what is your opinion on the role poetry has to play in today’s culture?
A: Politicians want to debase language, to debase discourse.
Is the forthcoming Election going to be fought on whether Gordon Brown is a flawed human being, with psychological problems, only one eye, prone to volcanic temper tantrums and bouncing people off the walls of Number 10, or is it going to about the real issues facing us all?
Jobs, education, health, housing, the economy?
I saw what the Conservatives and the right-wing press we have in this country did to Neil Kinnock, and what the Standard did to Ken Livingstone.
Are we going to get campaign by character assassination all over again or something more honest and serious?
Now if there’s one thing poetry does that current political discourse doesn’t it’s to use language at full stretch and to full effect.
There are great lines in poetry, but no sound bites.
Poetry isn’t trying to get on the 6 O’Clock News.
It owes no allegiance to anyone, least of all a political party. There’s no ‘going off message’ in poetry: poets have always been ‘off message’, which is why I think Plato wanted them banished from ‘The Republic’.
Now having said all this, I do think poets have become rather wan, invisible creatures at the moment, content to cultivate their own small two inches of ivory rather than reach out beyond their own rather narrow world.
Where is my generation’s Tony Harrison?
His sonnet sequences ‘From The School Of Eloquence’ and ‘Continuous’; and his longer poem ‘V’, as well as the poems he wrote whilst in Iraq, show that poetry can matter, can try to make things happen. Harrison’s sometimes populist metrics may be seen by some critics as fatuous, but like Charles Causley he’s not afraid to reach out to the broad swathe of readers who love poetry but feel mystified by the present state of the art, the present offerings of so many ‘poets’, Open most poetry magazines and the man or woman in the street is going to say, ‘I don’t get it’ or ‘So what?’. I think poetry should be doing a lot more – but I do not say it must be more ‘public’. Its very privacy is what keeps poetry unique in the power of expression it can muster. Graves’ love poems are very private really, written by one man to one woman; but we find in them something universal, something miraculous, we don’t find in, say, the latest edition of ‘Magenta’ or ‘Indigo’ (I made those titles up, so don’t waste your time googling!).
But of course Graves was also a WWI poet, who lived to read his own obituary, and spoke out against “the old sweet lie” like his comrade in arms, Wilfred Owen. He tossed both sides of the same coin, and didn’t, I think, subscribe to Auden’s view that “poetry makes nothing happen”.
Harrison’s sonnets, by the way, are much more complex, in terms of language use and the way he plays with form, than perhaps I’m making out. He’s a great, neglected poet now, who should be winning prizes every year, and be up for the Oxford Professorship of Poetry. I reckon it would greatly benefit this country’s poetic culture if Harrison won the Nobel – then poets wouldn’t seek to emulate the tricksiness of, say, Craig Raine, but would write poetry that connected not through mere cleverness but through sincere and deep belief in what truly matters.
I think poetry in this country took a wrong turn back in the mid-Nineties with the New Generation promotion. This attempt to breathe life into what was seen as a dying art was handed over to a handful of people who had more to do with PR than poetry. I’m sure if it had been left to the poets themselves the outcomes would have been very different.
Photo-shoots in Vogue? Poetry as the “new rock & roll”? Jamie McKendrick as the “Scottish Jimi Hendrix”?! All of this trivialised poetry, instead of popularising it.
I also think the promotion of poetry is very badly served by one crucial forum at the moment: radio. Poets and the radio are made for each other. I see Poetry Please now aims to have more readings by contemporary poets on the programme – well, that’s a little too little, too late. I love Roger McGough, and I have a feeling he’s wanted something like this for a long time, but couldn’t get it past his producer. The Verb on R3 is fine, but again there’s a bittiness to the magazine format that can end up trivialising poetry. Adventures In Poetry is about the best programme I’ve heard on the radio featuring poetry. Personally I’d like to see longer interviews with contemporary poets, someone like Harrison or Geoffrey Hill talking seriously and intelligently about their art, with readings of their poems to illustrate what they have to say. I could take at least 45 minutes of that! I’d also like to see more works from poets specially written for the medium, more ‘Plays For Voices’ like Dylan Thomas’s ‘Under Milk Wood’. Thomas served a long apprenticeship on radio, writing and broadcasting features, and serving as an actor in radio plays. You’d think the Beeb would have been keen on more poets at the mike, but it doesn’t seem to have happened.
But perhaps now it’s easier with technology for a poet to podcast their work, so I hope this will go from strength to strength. I know the poetry press I’m associated with, Waterloo Press in Brighton, is starting to make inroads into presenting poetry in new ways, so I hope that poetry, through means divers and various, can once again experience the standing it enjoyed only a short time ago.
In summary, then: poetry, I think, already plays an enormous part in our culture, from the verse in the ‘In Memoriam’ columns of local papers (and ‘A Scattering’ is one more contribution to this long line of distinguished English elegy), to that strange member of the Royal Household, the Poet Laureate, to the fact that our greatest writer, Shakespeare, is a poet, and has a theatre company named after him.
But poets could be doing so much more!
My biggest hope is that radio, especially the BBC, grants them greater access to the airwaves. Then I think we’d see poets reconnecting on a more serious, but also a more popular level, with people who have a hunger to hear the best the language has to offer.
Q: I know that you are working on some full-length fiction at the moment. What are your plans here and where are you finding your inspiration? How distracting is it teaching at the same time as writing?
A: I don’t want to say too much here, Helen! But I think I’ll have more news for you by the summer. My agent is very keen on one particular project, and I hope there may be some news very soon. As for teaching – hey, I’m lucky just to have a job! So I’m not going to complain about such congenial, fulfilling work either! And actually the teaching teaches me… But that’s a whole other interview!
Q: In ‘Sectioned’ you name Dylan Thomas, John Keats, Robert Graves and Patrick Kavanagh as poets you admire (in your interview at UEA). Who are your favourite novelists?
A: James Joyce’s ‘Ulysses’ has everything. Everyone knows about all the pyrotechnical brilliance, chapters laid out like a newspaper, like a play, the nine parodies in the maternity unit – as we’d called it now – the mad catechetical Q&A of the penultimate chapter, Molly Bloom’s soliloquy.
But he’s also a writer who can move you to tears and something beyond tears. Both the Hades chapter and the Circe chapter are brilliant in terms of his raw power to evoke deep, deep emotions. Joyce is just a genius. So ‘Ulysses’ is a kind of a bible – it has everything a writer needs in terms of lessons you can learn, tricks you can steal, methods to adopt.
The work of writers who’ve been publishing in the last ten years that’s most impressed me, and made me fall in love with every word they write, is the little group I call ‘The Plate Glass School’.
Two of them went to the University of Kent: Sarah Waters and David Mitchell; the third, David Peace, went to Manchester Poly. (I bet you can’t remember polys!). They’re all terrific. I think ‘Fingersmith’, ‘Cloud Atlas’, and ‘The Damned Utd’ are the three best English novels of the last decade.
The youngest writer whose work I like at the moment is Adam Foulds. I’ve read both ‘The Broken Word’, his ‘verse novella’; and ‘The Quickening Maze’. A terrific writer with the real gift every poet needs: the image-making gift. I’ve found him a little chilly at times, but I’ve heard his first novel is a picaresque, a comic English road movie of a novel, so am looking forward to reading that and hoping to see that he’s actually a little warmer than I’ve so far taken him for. But I think he’s a terrific writer.
Q: If you were a cloud, what sort of cloud would you be? I’d be a cirrostratus who sometimes wears a halo!
A: I would of course, Dear Helen, be a cloud with a silver lining…
www.johnodonoghue.co.uk
Sectioned is published by John Murray
Brunch Poems is published by Waterloo Press